after the Greeks ...

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peteroldracer
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Re: after the Greeks ...

Postby peteroldracer » Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:33 pm

It is all about power: if someone owes you money you have a lever to control them.
Governments and religions have created the fairy tales about gods and heaven to lead the ignorant, the concept of a hell to control by fear. Money is just another control lever.
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Re: after the Greeks ...

Postby ChrisM » Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:05 pm

For what it's worth, I agree with most the recent comments. Some observations:
1. Syriza were elected five months ago and had a positive referendum as recently this week, of 'no austerity'. So much for democracy. But I knew democracy was a myth throughout the world anyway. It's just confirmation.
2. The majority of the IMF's contributing nations (i.e. there's no such thing as government money. It's taxpayers' money) are poorer than Greece.
3. Five of the Eurozone nations are poorer than Greece; have been complying with reform/austerity; yet will be contributing to this 3rd major Greek bailout since 2010. So much for equity, solidarity, and responsibility.

I'm pleased for the Greek pensioners, family people and the average Joe on the street. Then again, who was Tsipras referring to this week when he said that tax evasion in Greece was endemic?

This Greek tragedy isn't over - merely put off for another and more dramatic, future.
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Re: after the Greeks ...

Postby olive » Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:07 pm

Why are you pleased for the pensioners, family people and average Joe? The measures proposed by the Greek government in return for yet more bailout money will hit exactly those people. See my earlier post but in a nutshell, pension reform and higher VAT.

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Re: after the Greeks ...

Postby ChrisM » Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:39 pm

Because we're all to some degree, in the same boat. UK personal debt is virtually the same as our national debt. The vast majority are living beyond their means. It's a question of degree (i.e. UK debt is over 80% of GDP).

Personally, the only constitutional conclusion to the Greek farce was exit from the Euro. That wouldn't fit with the EU narrative though, hence this fudge.
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Re: after the Greeks ...

Postby Nimrod » Sat Jul 11, 2015 10:00 am

Nice to see the Bubble squeak!

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Re: after the Greeks ...

Postby katy » Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:13 am

Greek pensions have already been slashed. One man said his pension was €1200 now €600 pm. He also supports his Son and wife, two Grandsons with this.

Greek debt is about 170%.waiting in the wings is Italy with 130%. Suprisingly Germany is only slightly less than the UK at 79.9%

I fail to see how increasing VAT and reducing pensions helps. Will just be more unemployment and less money in the economy.

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Re: after the Greeks ...

Postby markwilding » Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:47 am

Lavanda wrote:... but think how rich the UK would be if it were not in debt. Think what sort of a world power it could be with all that extra money. Not only education and health care for all but also well-funded armed forces to fight the good fight that is coming to a place nearby soon ... And what happens if there is an unforeseen disaster and the UK, suddenly, cannot service it's debt? What if it votes to leave the EU and all the IOUs come rolling in at once ... Debt is NOT a good idea.
This is very simplistic way of looking at debt.
I doubt that there are many of us on here who have manage to have a comfortable retirement without debt and owing banks large sums of money at some point in their lives.
As Dave said, the important thing is to be able to manage the debt.

As far as Greece Spain and the other bail out countries are concerned, it's often how the money has been invested, which has been the problem. Building a nice airport might bring in work for the duration of the construction but running it needs to reap profits.

At least Spain is making an effort to control public spending. Where I disagree with the majority of posters is I think they need to borrow but invest in helping the private sector to grow.

Greece simply believe it's OK for the rest of the world to pay for their crazy public spending policies and I think to EU stance is correct.

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Re: after the Greeks ...

Postby ChrisM » Sat Jul 11, 2015 9:47 pm

The German - plus half of the EU (mainly N/E European nations) position tonight: beef up the proposal with guarantees of implementation, or a five-year programme of 'temporary' Grexit.
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Re: after the Greeks ...

Postby anyroads » Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:23 pm

katy wrote:Greek pensions have already been slashed. One man said his pension was €1200 now €600 pm. He also supports his Son and wife, two Grandsons with this.

Greek debt is about 170%.waiting in the wings is Italy with 130%. Suprisingly Germany is only slightly less than the UK at 79.9%

I fail to see how increasing VAT and reducing pensions helps. Will just be more unemployment and less money in the economy.
As the poor in Greece are getting even poorer, hard to know how they benefited from all the money that has been squandered there !. Even after a possible third lot of bailout, there will be a whole sector of society below the poverty line.

Nothing much will change there. They will have to put on some kind of show for the Germans, but five years time, nothing will have improved much.

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Re: after the Greeks ...

Postby olive » Sun Jul 12, 2015 6:03 pm

I think that is Syriza's point. The money from bailouts hasn't gone to the poor in Greece but was primarily for the banks. Similarly another 74 billion IF they get it will be again for the banks and the Eurozone experiment.

They will have to commit to reforms to change the countries dynamics or be forced to leave the Euro. Increasing VAT and reducing pensions helps balance the books. The IMF recently advised Rajoy that there was room for our IVA to be increased! One suggestion was to leave the Euro for five years and then rejoin. I would love to see how that would work :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: after the Greeks ...

Postby katy » Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:24 pm

If greece, or any other country left for 5 years they wouldn't want to rejoin. the benefits of having their own currency would be clear. Same as the UK we would be upt the swanee if in the euro. Instead we have 5% unemployment even with absorbing perhaps a million immigrants or whatever you like to call them.

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Re: after the Greeks ...

Postby anyroads » Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:06 pm

You mean law abiding, tax paying valued members of society katy.


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Re: after the Greeks ...

Postby ChrisM » Mon Jul 13, 2015 8:18 pm

Going back to Lavanda's original post, especially in light of the outcome (at this stage of the drama at least), what now for Spain in terms of the elections in October or November?

Blame lies in all camps with the players in the drama, and I wonder what Podemos will be making of events?
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Re: after the Greeks ...

Postby anyroads » Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:49 pm

With the Germans playing hard ball, it does not matter what Podemos will be making of events.

The can in Greece has just been kicked down the road for a few more years. Nothing, or very little good will come out of it. Greece should never have been in the Euro, they should not be in the Euro now. They are not capable of change, even if trust upon them. It will all unravel alas.


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Re: after the Greeks ...

Postby Lavanda » Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:13 pm

The Greek people did vote in the Government and then set them the impossible task of staying in the Euro but not accepting more (any) austerity. That the PM is now on the verge of signing up for the worst of all possible deals against the express wishes of the people is not Democracy. Of course, the referendum question was stupid. He should have asked 'Austerity and in the Euro' or 'No austerity and in the Drachma'. That would have been more to the point. If the PM gets his 'package' voted through his own Parliament, I agree, the problem is only postponed a few years. Perhaps he is too much a politician to tackle the problem in the here and now? Who knows? He faces political ruin whatever he does.

Greece has, in the fairly recent past had a Military Junta Government. They ousted the King. With the banks still shut, food and medicines getting scarce, people not being paid pensions and salaries, civil unrest stirring ... perhaps events will overtake everyone? What would a Military Government do about 'austerity' and the Germans? I think Angela is the only sensible politician thinking this through. Greece should have a planned and controlled exit from the Euro and restructure her economy. In five years she may be in a position to rejoin the Euro, but, as Katy posted, would she want to do that? The debts, of course, would ALL be cancelled. It's a mess. It will still be a mess when most of this generation's Greeks are walking in the Elyssian Fields (or is that the Romans who do that?)

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Re: after the Greeks ...

Postby Lavanda » Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:17 pm

PS I think Podemos are watching events very closely. A lot will depend on what happens in the coming months BUT if Podemos can appeal to the jobless young people of Spain, as Syriza did in Greece with their jobless young, then Podemos will get a fair few votes. No?

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Re: after the Greeks ...

Postby ChrisM » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:08 pm

Perhaps not. As you say, a lot will depend on what happens in the current months. It's not going to be pretty, and it although may not affect Podemos' mindset, but it will certainly affect the mindset of the guy on the street who is inclined to vote Podemos. Politicians live in their own bubble. Those of us schmucks who live in the real world have a more pragmatic outlook.
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Re: after the Greeks ...

Postby markwilding » Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:02 pm

ChrisM wrote:
Lavanda wrote:PS I think Podemos are watching events very closely. A lot will depend on what happens in the coming months BUT if Podemos can appeal to the jobless young people of Spain, as Syriza did in Greece with their jobless young, then Podemos will get a fair few votes. No?
Perhaps not. As you say, a lot will depend on what happens in the current months. It's not going to be pretty, and it although may not affect Podemos' mindset, but it will certainly affect the mindset of the guy on the street who is inclined to vote Podemos. Politicians live in their own bubble. Those of us schmucks who live in the real world have a more pragmatic outlook.
I agree but there are still plenty of Spanish voters who think money grows on trees too. It's one of the reasons the politicians have got away with the corruption because some still don't understand that it's their taxes they pay that fund public services
It's crazy but it's true.

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Re: after the Greeks ...

Postby wollie » Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:40 pm

I was watching the news this evening and some people in Rome were interviewed and they expressed total disgust with what has being done to Greece and the blame is being directed at Angela.
As I am not in Spain I am wondering what is the feeling on the ground and in the media as to what has happened or if there is an appetite to challenge all of this that is happening.

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Re: after the Greeks ...

Postby Mowser » Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:36 am

I see the IMF has now come out to criticise the Greek deal. What on earth is going on?
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