Invoices and retentions for self employed??

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julian
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Re: Invoices and retentions for self employed??

Postby julian » Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:47 pm

wildside, I know my asesor,(been with him for 20 years now) and I am not the slightest bit "afraid", I will be more than happy to pay his bills if and when he gives me them, he deserves the money and I will be more than happy to pay him.I am not avoiding him , nor avoiding paying him, we ask him everytime we see him to give us the bill, and he laughs it off.
he did arrange a mortgage for us, so I hope he got a commission for that, so maybe that is his "logic", happy to get a lump when he can, and not bother us for monthly bills,no doubt on our next sale he will ask for something for doing he paperwork, I hope he does, he deserves it and I´ll be happy to pay him.
would he take the wife off me?..well, there´s a thought, maybe I´ll refuse to pay him !!!(only joking girls) :D

Jool
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Re: Invoices and retentions for self employed??

Postby Jool » Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:23 am

Can we get back on track and ask David Searl what the official take is on this please?

Also is it true in law that Asesores are not liable in any way for the information they give out as we are all talking about our respective asesores and its clear from my friend´s situation etc that opinions and practices differ considerably......

Beachcomber
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Re: Invoices and retentions for self employed??

Postby Beachcomber » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:07 am

I think the relevant law is Real Decreto 439/2007, Article 76.
Jool wrote:... She pays tax and IVA every quarter but now, apparently, she has to lose 15% of her income until next July effectively, almost a year away as the quarterly tax payments will not be adjusted to a lesser percentage, ...
She does not lose 15% of her income until the following July because she will deduct any retentions made when she does her quarterly tax return on form 130. She puts the amount deducted in box 06 and deducts that from the amount of the fractional payment for that quarter.
Let's go Brandon!

Jool
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Re: Invoices and retentions for self employed??

Postby Jool » Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:04 pm

Thank you Beachcomber.......would you happen to know if there are any leaflets or info sheets from Hacienda for people setting up their own business to give this kind of info out - I´be been working for 7 years and never knew this........

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Re: Invoices and retentions for self employed??

Postby Beachcomber » Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:22 pm

I don't know of any AEAT leaflets that deal with this.

As someone said in another thread, you get no information from so called Spanish professionals. You have to know what questions to ask and you may or may not get an answer.

That's why Spaniards very rarely use lawyers for property conveyancing.
Let's go Brandon!

julian
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Re: Invoices and retentions for self employed??

Postby julian » Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:30 pm

not to mention that property conveyancing is so simple here that a spaniard really doesn´t need a lawyer.

Beachcomber
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Re: Invoices and retentions for self employed??

Postby Beachcomber » Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:33 pm

Neither do foreigners. All they really need is a translator.
Let's go Brandon!

julian
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Re: Invoices and retentions for self employed??

Postby julian » Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:46 pm

Jool, it´s all in www.aeat.es
happy reading !! :?

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Re: Invoices and retentions for self employed??

Postby Beachcomber » Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:36 pm

I have to say that I found out about this retention business purely by accident when my wife did her first translation for a gestor several years ago. It was purely more by luck than judgement although I have to admit that we have never used a gestor or lawyer for anything whatsoever in Spain.

When she did a translation for a lawyer recently he didn't know he had to make a retention and pay it to AEAT either.

Talk about the blind leading the blind.
Let's go Brandon!

julian
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Re: Invoices and retentions for self employed??

Postby julian » Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:56 pm

bit far for you Jool, but you might enjoy it and be able to let off some steam (bring your boxing gloves), there is a seminar on "how to create a business in andalucia" in mijas on the 24th sept, starts at 4.30pm, bring a list of your questions, (and sarnies,the seminar should finish about xmas time !!!) :)

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DavidSearl
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Re: Invoices and retentions for self employed??

Postby DavidSearl » Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:56 pm

FROM DAVID SEARL

Yes, "retencion" is "withholding tax" and it is legally required in many situations where a company or a working professional pays for services rendered.

The basic rule is this: If a company, SL or SA, employs a person to provide some services, that person must submit a bill with IVA added on to it and "Retenciones" subtracted from it, as noted by Beachcomber. The company who is the payer then pays that 15 per cent into the Tax Agency in the name of the service provider.

When the service provider makes his "pago fraccionado", or quarterly tax declaration, he lists these credits as already paid tax. The service provider also pays the IVA, at 16 per cent, to the Tax Agency, as collected from his original payer. IVA, remember, is a zero-sum game. You, the service provider, are simply a tax collector.

Example: A real estate company hires David Searl to write advertising copy. David Searl, a professional writer, bills the company for IVA and "Retenciones". The real estate company pays the 15 per cent into the Tax Agency. David Searl pays the IVA into the Tax Agency. David Searl then writes a book and leases the distribution rights to his publisher. The publisher pays him royalties. There is no IVA on royalties, but a company is paying them to David Searl, so they must make "retenciones".

An individual professional may also be required to make withholding tax and IVA if he hires another professional to carry out some task that is related to the professional's business activities.

Example: David Searl uses a professional accountant to do his accounts. The accountant sends him a bill with IVA and withholding tax. So David Searl has to go to the bank each quarter with Form 110 and pay to the Tax Agency the miserable little "retencion" he has made for his accountant. (This always annoyed me because it was the only thing I had on the Form 110, but it had to be done).

Short version, Any company must do withholding tax. A professional must do withholding tax when his work is related to the professional or business activities of the payer.

So, who does not handle withholding tax? If a plumber does a job for a private home, there is IVA but no withholding tax. If he does a job for a restaurant installation, there should be withholding tax as well as IVA, even if the restaurant is not owned by a company but by one person, because the job is related to the business activity.

If my accountant does a job for me, there is withholding tax, because it is related to my business activity. If he does the tax declaration for a private citizen, there is no withholding tax.

I hope this helps. And, yes, I am amazed that so many people in business seem blissfully unaware of the whole system

I agree with you all that information is hard to come by in English. I do not find any in the AEAT, the Tax Agency, web site.

But whoever mentioned Real Decreto Legislativo 3/2004 del 5 de mayo and/or Real Decreto 439/2007 is heading in the right direction. Or Article 82, or 101, or 105 of Real Decreto Legislativo 40/1998

In fact, it is a little difficult even to look up a tax law because the entire law was first published in, say, 2004, and then amended in 2007, and modified at another time, and each of these appears separately, so it is not easy to find a complete law.

I actually had pretty good results from keeping it simple. I Googled, "Quien tiene que practicar retenciones?" and got good answers.

Yes, the 2009-2010 edition of You and the Law in Spain is now in bookshops, but this thread has made me realise that it is woefully short of explaining the withholding tax picture. There will be a more complete treatment next year, thanks to you all.

Good luck with it, David Searl
You and the Law in Spain

Jool
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Re: Invoices and retentions for self employed??

Postby Jool » Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:24 pm

Thank you David, it is indeed a minefield...........if the information was easily available in spanish it would help...........

I checked with my gestor about my own position and I am registered autonomo but as an empresarial autonomo so therefore I do not need to follow this withholding (retention) tax - which is why I had never heard of it - is this actually correct?

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DavidSearl
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Re: Invoices and retentions for self employed??

Postby DavidSearl » Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:18 pm

FROM DAVID SEARL

FOR JOOL,

Jool, thank you very much for revealing to me an embarrassing gap in my coverage of withholding tax, "retenciones". Everything I said in my earlier longer post about "autonomos" needing to submit bills with "retenciones" subtracted is correct, but it is incomplete, misleadingly incomplete.

Because there are two types of "autonomos". The "profesional" and the "empresarial".

A "professional" self-employed worker, such as myself, a writer, must bill with withholding tax, as described. A self-employed sales agent is also a professional. He bills his client for his commissions with retenciones. However, most self-employed workers are in fact "empresarial" autonomos, such as your tax consultant pointed out to you. This means they are running a business.

These "empresarial" autonomos include, for example, plumbers and carpenters. The idea is that they have expenses for materials, equipment and so forth, which they include on their "factura". So it would not be fair to have "retenciones" of 15 per cent withheld from a total bill that includes these expenses. Because these are expenses, not part of their real income.

This explains why people who have been working here for years have never heard of "retenciones". Because their activity does not require it, in contradiction to what I said in the other post.

When you first register with the Tax Agency as autonomo, you fill in Form 037, the "census" form. This form includes the reference number for your class of activity. If you still have your original registration, you can look up your number, which appears on your tax declaration and some other documents, too. It went with your original application for IAE, the "business licence", or Impuesto sobre Actividades Economicas, which still exists but is now charged at the rate of zero for small operators. This reference shows whether you are professional or empresarial.

As an additonal useful note, you can request the Tax Agency to send to you by post a list of all tax data they currently hold on your "witholding tax" situation. This lists your clients and shows what withholding tax they have paid into the Tax Agency in your name for the previous year. Very useful at tax time. You have to go in person, or have your electronic signature for Internet, or have your tax consultant do it for you.

thank you again, Jool, and thank your tax consultant, too

Best Wishes, David Searl
You and the Law in Spain


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