Confusion about NIE/Residency

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Bennybarks
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Confusion about NIE/Residency

Postby Bennybarks » Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:19 pm

I obtained an NIE number around 10 years ago to work and live in Spain.
I then used this NIE number to open bank accounts and buy a house recently, and have been back and forth from Spain for the last few years, (staying longer than 90 days).

Now I am confused!

Does this mean I am a resident?
If not, do I have to apply separately for a resident permit, (or should I before Brexit?)
I was under the impression you only needed a residency permit if you were from outside the EU, (I am from the UK).

I never received any TIE card or green card ever, just a piece of paper with my NIE number on it.

Any help would be appreciated.

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gerryh
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Re: Confusion about NIE/Residency

Postby gerryh » Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:36 pm

No it does not mean that you are a legal resident.
If you intend to stay for longer than 90 days then you should apply for residencia.
Might be worth getting it before Brexit just in case the rules are totally changed.
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elusive
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Re: Confusion about NIE/Residency

Postby elusive » Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:10 pm

NIE and getting what people call residencia are two very different things. I read that people who are non EU get residencia but EU people just sign on the foreigner list. Maybe the confusion is caused by everyone calling it residencia regardless.

But yes you should have applied for residency (residencia) if spain is your habitual home.if you stay longer than 3 months with an intent to stay.after 6 months you are classed as tax resident. If your main home is the uk ie you work there,your family are there etc and you just come to spain every so often then dont apply. The uk gov has advised people strongly to get legal before brexit which means becoming a legal resident. otherwise you have no more right to stay here than a holiday maker which is three months at a time in every six

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Re: Confusion about NIE/Residency

Postby Beachcomber » Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:25 pm

If you spend more than 183 days in Spain you are not just 'classed' as a fiscal resident you must register as such with AEAT and submit a resident's tax return and asset declaration.

They are becoming much more strict on this and appear to be routinely claiming that people are fiscal residents unless they can prove that they are not. Remember, you are guilty until proven innocent in Spain and many other such countries.

My wife accompanied a very worried person to translate at the tax office recently. He had been deemed to be a fiscal resident in 2014 and he had been sent a demand for several thousand euros in unpaid tax under threat of having his property embargoed. Not only that but he was concerned that if he was proven in their eyes to have been a fiscal resident in 2014 they would then be able to fine him for failing to submit tax declarations for following years as well as several hundred thousand euros for having failed to make an asset declaration.

However, more by luck than judgement he had been in the habit of saving his airline boarding cards since time immemorial and was able to show that he had only spent some eleven weeks in Spain in 2014. We printed out all of the boarding cards and my wife presented them, together with Spanish non-resident tax declarations from 2004 to the present day along with UK tax returns for the same period, to a somewhat bemused clerk in the tax office who sought advice from a superior.

It transpired that they had assumed that he had been a fiscal resident because he had signed on the padrón in order to register a vehicle that he had purchased that year and also because a gestor had registered him as a fiscal resident, without telling him, in order to pay the new vehicle tax.

They eventually reluctantly accepted that he could not have been a fiscal resident of Spain in 2014 (or any other year). Knowing that she had the upper hand my wife insisted that they produce an official letter there and then to the effect that their claim was in error. They were reluctant to do so but capitulated when she stated that her next port of call would be the office of the Defensor del Pueblo.

If you think you are in the right you must stand your ground otherwise they will walk all over you. We have had several spats with the AEAT both on our own account and that of other people but we have always won including one case that was in the courts for a couple of years and resulted in AEAT having to pay all of the court expenses together with several thousand euros in interest for a very large tax rebate that they had tried not to pay.

REMEMBER: Noli illegitimi carborundum.

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Re: Confusion about NIE/Residency

Postby elusive » Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:47 pm

Thanks for sharing beach. Very intresting. We have some friends in a similar situation re 2014. They are finding it difficult to prove they werent tax residents. Payslips from the uk and a letter from hmrc that says "to the best of our kmowledge they were uk tax resident" (what the heck the best of our knowledge is suppposed to mean i dont know) isnt good enough. They want several thousand off them aswell.

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Re: Confusion about NIE/Residency

Postby Manchesteral » Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:15 pm

Can I jump on the bandwagon here ?
I obtained an N I E back in 1993 I have mislaid it and mwill probably need to use it in the near future, is there aprocess whereby I can renew/redeem this document or would it be easier to jst apply for a new one and where would be the closest location to Torrox to achieve this ? tyhanks in advance :-)

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Re: Confusion about NIE/Residency

Postby elusive » Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:59 pm

The national police station at torre del mar will be your nearest. Not sure if you can get a new one or they will bring you up on the system.

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Re: Confusion about NIE/Residency

Postby Beachcomber » Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:25 pm

If you give exactly the same details as before it should come up with your original number.

Elusive, have your friends been able to produce non-resident tax returns?

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Re: Confusion about NIE/Residency

Postby El Cid » Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:35 pm

Do you not need your old passport number that you used when you first applied? That far back you may have no record of it.

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Re: Confusion about NIE/Residency

Postby 1bassleft » Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:34 am

Manchesteral, your number should stick to you. My 2001 NIE was no use for a 2017 car purchase but I have a good memory for alphanumerics and my NIE was an easy brainstore. As Sid says, that passport number may be handy. Do you keep your old Spanish bank books? I do, and my changing passport numbers over the years are recorded in those.

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Re: Confusion about NIE/Residency

Postby Miro » Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:13 am

Beachcomber wrote:Remember, you are guilty until proven innocent in Spain
If you think you are in the right you must stand your ground otherwise they will walk all over you.
REMEMBER: Noli illegitimi carborundum.


That is so true!
Interesting that 2014 seems to have been a significant year for AEAT to try and claim that non-residents were actually full fiscal residents. In 2013 we had the exact opposite problem; despite having been fiscal residents since 1997, and filing tax returns every year, when I applied for a tax residency certificate in order to sell a property without the 3% non-resident retention, AEAT declared that I was not a tax resident, and I had to jump through hoops to prove otherwise, including obtaining a letter from HMRC saying, (you guessed it) to the best of their knowledge ya de ya de ya.... :crazy:
Don't worry about what people think, they don't do it very often

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Re: Confusion about NIE/Residency

Postby Bennybarks » Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:21 am

Thanks for all the information.
I work on a ship, so I am never in Spain longer than 3 months at a time, or 6 months of the year, so It seems the residencia doesn't apply to me.

Let see if it changes after brexit!

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Re: Confusion about NIE/Residency

Postby elusive » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:21 am

Beachcomber wrote:If you give exactly the same details as before it should come up with your original number.

Elusive, have your friends been able to produce non-resident tax returns?


They didnt own a property here at that stage beach. They sold up in the uk and moved over to spain around sept 2014 and bought a property here a couple of months later.So became tax residents six months later in 2015. They didnt get their residence permit until jan 2015 which makes me wonder if hacienda have picked them out possible thinking that is looks suspicious that they got their residencia at the begining of a new tax year??

But should they have filed a non resident tax form for 2014 as they bought a property in 2014 but didnt become offical residents until 2015?? Maybe thats the connection :crazy:

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Re: Confusion about NIE/Residency

Postby Beachcomber » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:47 am

Yes, they should have submitted a non-resident tax return pro-rata according to the number of days they owned it in 2014.

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costakid
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Re: Confusion about NIE/Residency

Postby costakid » Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:43 am

El Cid wrote:Do you not need your old passport number that you used when you first applied? That far back you may have no record of it.

Sid


I have every passport that’s ever been issued to me. I can see how well i have aged if i am feeling down. HA HA

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Re: Confusion about NIE/Residency

Postby elusive » Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:02 pm

Beachcomber wrote:Yes, they should have submitted a non-resident tax return pro-rata according to the number of days they owned it in 2014.



Thanks beach. I'll ask them if they did,cant imagine its something they even knew about. Thats prob why they have come a cropper now.

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Re: Confusion about NIE/Residency

Postby Beachcomber » Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:12 pm

It would certainly have helped their case if they had submitted them. Unfortunately it is people like this that get caught in the crossfire whilst the inveterate tax-dodgers who have never paid any taxes at all, and even ridicule those who do, get away with it. There are indications, though, that their days may be numbered.

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Re: Confusion about NIE/Residency

Postby elusive » Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:11 pm

Very true. Those who try to do everything by the book put themselves in the firing line while those under the radar just seem to go on their merry way. Although its given me enjoyment seeing people running around trying to get legal before brexit and now knowing that even if its a few years down the line they will have hacienda on their back and will find it impossible to prove they were uk residents when they have been living in spain for years without paying a penny. Shame i wont be here to see or hear about it though

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Re: Confusion about NIE/Residency

Postby gerrynag » Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:57 pm

Bennybarks wrote:Thanks for all the information.
I work on a ship, so I am never in Spain longer than 3 months at a time, or 6 months of the year, so It seems the residencia doesn't apply to me.

Let see if it changes after brexit!


I think you are getting confused about the difference between tax residency and Residencia, these are completely different and you can be one without the other.
Assuming a no-deal brexit, Spain has said, that if you are not legally resident, i.e. have residencia, then you can only spend 90 days in a 6 month period in Spain and your exit and entry to Spain will be controlled at entry points to enforce this.

So worth bearing in mind, if you are likely to be here for longer than 90 days.

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Re: Confusion about NIE/Residency

Postby Manchesteral » Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:35 am

elusive wrote:The national police station at torre del mar will be your nearest. Not sure if you can get a new one or they will bring you up on the system.


Hi elisive, thanks for that, can you tell me where the national police station is located ? I'm not Familiar at all with Torre del mar !


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